Posted by: cousinbrandon | May 24, 2010

LOST – Season 6, Episodes 17 & 18: “The End”

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This image feels entirely too significant to me now for oh so many reasons. Because that, after all, is it, folks. The End. All of it. The image of Jack turning his back on us. The image of our protagonist coming to terms with what he’s done and what he must do. The image of a man who is not only fated to die, but knows and accepts it. Here he is: Jack Shephard. And in this moment of introspection and eerie calm he isn’t walking on water despite Sawyer’s quip about him always having “a God complex.” He isn’t Jesus Christ after all. He stands, instead, in a stream up over his ankles, partially underwater, sunken to some extent like the image of the island itself in the season’s first episode. Because in this brief and very quiet moment, Jack Shephard isn’t Jesus Christ. He isn’t Jacob. He isn’t the island’s protector or Kate’s hero or FLocke’s antithesis. He is Jack Shephard. He is a man who will at last not fix others, but fix himself. How? By letting go. By accepting these words not as cliche, but as apt:

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I didn’t take any notes on “The End.” I didn’t want to. As one of those obsessive nerds who’s been watching LOST every week since the debut, I kind of felt like I owed to myself to sit back and let it wash over me. Will I go back and watch it again? Of course. But to have watched last night with pen and paper felt wrong, and instead I drank beer and ate Carnitas at the home of my pal, Pete. Six of us gathered ’round his flat-screen with mouths agape. And when it all came to an end, I was left with a single word to encapsulate my thoughts on the episode:

“Huh.”

No, not a question, but a mere response. In other words, I didn’t know how I felt. I knew that I loved the episode, but mainly because of how epic it was, in that the show I’d spent the last six years watching and the last three years writing about just up and ended. Poof! Gone. Like a ghost. But did I love how it ended? Did I feel satisfied? Initially, well, no. But let’s face it: I wasn’t going to feel satisfied no matter what happened. I mean, it would have been impossible for the ending not to be a letdown in some facet. But I’m okay with that. Why? Because, as trite as it is, it’s the journey, not the destination. Where we ended up was insignificant in comparison to how we got there.

Sure, there are plenty of questions that were never properly addressed, such as:

  • What was the significance of Aaron?
  • What was the significance of Walt?
  • Did the Dharma Initiative even matter?
  • Why does the MiB take the form of smoke?
  • Who really brought them to the island: Jacob or Desmond?
  • How did Hurley gain weight on the island?

I can overlook some of the questions that just don’t seem significant now in the big picture, such as the whole Libby in the mental ward thing. Frankly, though, it’s hard to look at some of those questions above and not feel somewhat cheated. Sure, Darlton have claimed all along that they knew how it would end, and I completely accept that. But I also fully understand that to map out how they would get there in the course of six seasons would be impossible. So, to allow for some red herrings and bad writing choices makes sense. But considering, for instance, that the first two seasons focused so heavily on Walt’s “gift” and Michael’s rescuing him without ever really explaining it? Unfortunately, I have to call bullshit to some extent. (What other “big” questions weren’t answered that you think needed to be answered?)

I think two of the biggest questions we’ll be asking ourselves this morning are these:

  1. What was the significance of the sideways story this season? and
  2. What in the hell happened in the last five minutes of the show?

If I had to interpret/attempt to answer these questions, it might go something like this: the sideways storyline wasn’t real. At least, not in a secular sense. Was it an alternate reality? No, not in the sense that it was running parallel to the island storyline. The sideways world was a collective unconscious, of sorts. It was that place of letting go, where the soul has been redeemed and the mind has moved on. It was that spiritual, post-death “reality” where everything is “right,” and the people we love are there. I think we know this based on the fact that things simply didn’t make sense in the sideways story. Consider the following sideways events:

  • Jack’s neck bleeding three different times for apparently no reason (even though we now know how he sustained that injury);
  • Sun and Locke showing up at the hospital at the same time even though she would have been shot days before he was run over with Desmond’s car;
  • Locke undergoing major spinal surgery, leaving the hospital and walking all in the span of what must have been a couple hours;
  • Locke telling Jack that he doesn’t have a son; and
  • The sheer fact that all of these people just happened to be on the same flight and just happened to be in Los Angeles.

I could go on and on with this, really. Where was Helen? How did Des know Locke wouldn’t die when he ran him over? How are folks like Shannon, Boone, and Roger Linus even alive here? What’s more, how in the hell is Christian Shephard among the “living”? Answer: he’s not. They’re not. Which brings us to the second question of what was happening during the final scene, in which a near-death Jack scrambled back to the bamboo while the “congregation” met in church. That scene was the letting go. That scene was the man who tried to fix everyone else finally fixing himself. That was him taking not only his own advice to John Locke, but the advice given to him by Rose in the season premiere, when she told him, “You can let go now.” Jack has realized his own mortality, and in forgiving himself and allowing it in, he can not only die on the island at peace, but find happiness at the next level. Are the other island folk really there, too? Yes and no.

Look, if we consider both the opening shot of LOST (Jack’s eye opening on the island, among the bamboo) and the closing shot (Jack’s eye closing, among the bamboo), we realize we’ve watched a perfectly bookended story. What’s more, we now realize that, to some extent, all of this has happened not through the lens of a collective group, but through the perspective of Jack Shephard. All along, we’ve been watching his story, even when we weren’t. Those other episodes that followed the lives and backstories of the other survivors? In a sense, those are all Jack’s story, too. The point, it would seem, is to make us realize that the show has been about two major themes: love and redemption, perhaps in that order. When we are able to love and forgive ourselves, we are able to love and forgive others. We let go and are redeemed. Sure, it reeks of good will and positivity and religious themes, right down to “Do unto others…” But is that so bad? I mean, LOST has weighed heavily on religion since jump. So is realizing we’ve been fed a message of hope really so terrible? I think not, and coming from someone who is so inherently negative, that’s saying something.

I could get into more of issues with did (and didn’t) happen in “The End.” I could complain about the show’s overall ambiguity. I could speak more to the bullet points above and hypothesize about Aaron’s signifcance, say, or my feeling dissatisfied with the roles of Jacob, Man in Black and, to some extent, Desmond. I could talk about the many sad and touching moments last night, including Sawyer and Juliet’s reunion, or Charlie and Claire’s, or even Jack and Vincent’s. And at some point, I might do just that. But, for now, I’m going to leave things be. I will go back; I will re-watch the finale and have even more thoughts and opinions. But for now, I’d rather hear what the rest of you have to think.

A couple of “programming” notes:

  • In case you missed it, I got very drunk and hosted a LOST podcast on Saturday night, which you can listen to here. Thanks again to Mike Dell for manning the boards, and to you good folks who called in to chat.
  • As promised, I will be re-watching and blogging about the first season of LOST, hopefully starting next week. I hope you’ll all re-watch (and read along) with me. I’m awfully curious to see how much of the ending was informed at the beginning.

So, that’ll do it. That’s it. My beloved LOST is over. See you all in another life, brother.

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BD

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Responses

  1. When did the flight 815 passengers die? Was it when the flight crashed on the island, or when Juliet activated the bomb?

    Or was this (the whole series) really just the story of Jack, which would mean that his death (and time spent in purgatory) is the focus of the whole series (i.e., this is the story of a dude who died in a plane crash and spent time in limbo until he could resolve his own issues)?

    • I think, JMZ, we can look at this in one of two ways. You can either say that, yes, they died in the plane crash, which is why the show ended with showing us the wreckage of 815 on the beach. However, that wouldn’t make sense in that, for instance, Aaron was born on the island. That is, Aaron was born AFTER the wreckage, which would have been impossible since Claire would have been dead. As far as when they died, it doesn’t matter. We don’t know. Look, the scene in the chuch just confirms that, at some point, all the people we love are there with us when we die. There was no real time in the sideways world, which I wrote about above.

      Jack didn’t die in the plane crash. What happened on the island happened. I fully believe that. He died as a result of the knife wound he suffered by FLocke, NOT in the plane crash.

  2. Ok, my brain is still mulling things over but here’s my intial take on the ending:

    1. So it appears that sideways flash was not really sideways but more of a purgatory type place just waiting for all of them to gather and let go. As Christian said, some of them had already died and some died later but the point was they were all at this place now and were real at some point.

    2. I’m thinking that the island was real and the events that happened there did occur. I don’t think they died in the initial plane crash. Now, going along with this theory, then I have to ask what happens to people that got on the plane at the end and left the island? Do they just return back to society and live out their lives until they die?

    3. I also agree that I don’t think there was any ending that would have really left me satisfied but I guess maybe I’m a sucker for a happy ending because I did enjoy seeing all of our characters find peace in the sideways world. I enjoyed Ben and Locke’s final conversation and even Ben and Hurley’s exchange seem to imply that the island stuff was real. Although, I will say for all the time invested in Michael/Walt, they should have made a cameo and been in the church scene.

    4. One other question that wasn’t really addressed is what would Smokey have done had he actually gotten off the island? Everyone kept saying the world would end or everyone would die but it appears he lost his powers if Kate was able to shoot him in the end. Also, his first fight scene with Jack, I didn’t like he was easily able to knock Jack unconscious for a bit with a rock. Granted i’ve never been in a fight where someone took a rock and smashed it into my face but still I just wasn’t buying that. But that’s me nitpicking.

    5. Another small nitpick is Sayid ending up with Shannon. I know they fell in love on the island and maybe she was his true soulmate, but once again, all he was trying to do is to be with Nadia so maybe he should have ended up with her?

    Think that’s it for now. Got to look around and do some reading and i’m sure other thoughts will surface. Also, sorry I didn’t get a chance to call in btu didn’t get out of my friends wedding until close to midnight. At some point today or tomorrow, I’ll download the podcast and see what you all talked about.

    • 1. Exactly. This was the falling action, in a sense. This was the aftermath not in a concrete way, but a spiritual one. The WHEN is irrelevant; the fact that Jack finally let go is what matters.

      2. As I just wrote to JMZ, I completely agree. The island story actually happened. It was very real. And, yes, the people who left the island will die at some point. The question is are they all redeemed? Have they all “let go”? Are they ready to have their church moment? I mean, think about this: Ana Lucia “wasn’t ready yet,” according to Desmond in “What They Died For.” This is why not everyone was at the church.

      3. As has always been the case, the best scenes on the show were always between Locke and Ben, Locke and Jack, and Ben and Jack. One of the more interesting conversations last night took place between Kate and Desmond in the car, only because I couldn’t think of another scene just the two of them shared together. And by the way, pretty awesome to see Jack and Sawyer hug in the church, even though it wasn’t real.

      4. Smokey became mortal once Desmond removed the stone from the pool of water. It’s what allowed Jack/Kate to kill him. And what’s more, as predicted, FLocke’s comment about “liking to feel his feet on the ground” to remember what being human was like proved to foreshadow his demise, as he was killed in human form.

      5. Yeah, I do think there’s something weird about his ending up with Shannon. Yes, they fell in love on the island and, yes, Nadia was killed off the island, but in either case both women are dead. I think seeing him with Shannon again was awesome, in that, as Hurley told him, he really wasn’t the monster everyone told him he was. Still, I always thought Nadia was his soulmate.

      Thanks for your thoughts, sir. See you back here for season 1, I hope.

      • How are you doing Season 1? Just 1 episode a week? It will be interesting to see how much you can pick up on now knowing what we know.

        • Yeah, my plan is to do an episode every week (or even every two weeks). I’m intrigued to see how much of what we know was already there.

          • I predict a lot of frustration in season 1 as we discover more tidbits that were red herrings/dead ends. I also expect we’ll have a fair amount of pleasant surprises as we find foreshadows to future events.

  3. CB – Has anyone pointed out the name Christian Sheppard? Everyone met in a Church in the end, so they could possibly be Christians or at least Jack might be and since this seems to be a journey mainly involving Jack, maybe Jack’s Dad had a hand in leading them there kind of like a sheppard.

    Maybe far fetched and weak, but the name Christian Sheppard may have a bigger meaning.

    • Yeah, Ryan. I mean, we’ve been discussing the signifcance of his name since the get-go. I always looked at his name in a literal sense. So, yes, Christian Shephard’s name does, in fact, have a greater meaning.

      • Somebody laughed at the name Christian Shephard last night, but I can’t remember who. Was it Kate?

        • Yes, it was Kate. Last night’s episode was VERY self-referential.

  4. I can’t stop thinking about this ending. It’s almost a huge copout. A smart one, but a copout, nonetheless. It’s basically saying that these things happened to Jack, but the only reason they matter is because of the relationships they formed when he was doing these things, and the events themselves were secondary at best. Weird island stuff? Who cares?! It doesn’t matter, oh because EVERYBODYS BEEN DEAD FOR AGES. the viewers, like Jack, need to just LET GO. Touché, writers, touche.

    I particularly enjoyed a lot of aspects of this. I like how it was implied that Ben was the current protector. I cried like a little bitch through half of it. And it’s interesting how Eloise knew that everybody that Des was collecting was dead, implying that maybe Daniel was still alive?

    This shit is really hard to type on an iPhone, so even though there is a shit ton of commentary I’d like to make, let me just end with, good job brutha, see you at the beginning of season 1.

    • You’re back, a.!

      I don’t know that I agree with your comment that “everybody’s been dead for ages.” In fact, I downright disagree with it. Yeah, I think it is problematic that so much of the mythological stuff was essentially made to seem secondary and even unnecessary. Still, I don’t fault the journey. It was those sorts of elements that made me such a fantatic.

      I am also disagreeing with your take that Ben is the protector. That is, he’s second-in-command to Hurley. This was confirmed both on and off-island. (And by the way, I’m patting myself on the back for saying it would be Hurley all along.)

      I look forward to your thoughts on season 1. You know, since you haven’t seen it yet and all.

      • Can you really pat yourself on the back for saying it was Hurley? Hurley was Jack’s replacement, not Jacob’s, :). You can put yourself on the back for pointing out that Hurley’s line of “i’m really glad it’s not me” came back to bite him in the end.

        • All I’m saying is that I made it clear since the start of the whole candidate process that it would make a great deal of since if it was Hurley. There were so many clues. Yes, it was Jack, but for what seemed like a few hours. Hurley, in the end, was not only the heart of the show, but its protector. Seems right.

          • Is the biggest clue the fact that he somehow has surhuman (not sure of the world in English, I meant to say extraordinary) powers unlike the other Losties? Although there was another man with powers whom I still puzzled by his presence and role on the island. That is Miles. He’s no candidate, he’s not a pilot (only purpose of Lapidus), what’s his purpose? What is he looking for?

      • Whales vagina. Agree to disagree. Maybe notall of the characters have been dead for ages, but at leastso eof them have. Christian even states so. So there.

        And I know that it was originally set up with Hurley as Jacob and Ben as Number Two, but obviously Hurley is dead and going on the Good Ship Lollipop with all of the other deadites to, where-the-hell-ever, so that means he’s dead too. However, I can see Hurley turning over responsibilityto Ben before he, as Hurley didn’t want theresponsibilityto begin with, and it’s the only thing Ben ever wanted. This also explains why Ben didn’t gointo the building-he still had the responsibility to take care if the island.

        Although, something that really bothers me is, save it fro
        what? MiB is dead. Light is back on. And actually, why is the light so important to begin with? Gaaaaah!

  5. I think Christian said that they had to be with the most important people in their lives in order to “move on.” Maybe Ana Lucia will move on when she meets up with someone who impacted her life before the island. And Charlotte and Faraday will connect soon and move on. Or, was the entire sideways universe simply for the ones we saw at the church, and there are other sideways universes for other people?

    • Morning, Jon. I have to think that all of these people are the people necessary to Jack. That is, whether or not these other people show up isn’t all that important. Not to Jack, anyway. For now, in this moment. He is loved. In fact, he is LOVE! He has finally let go. Do others have their own sideways reality? Perhaps. But, again, this is Jack’s story and always has been, so that’s what really matters.

  6. Another interesting point I just thought of: the room with Christian’s coffin has a ton of imagery from various religions. It’s not just Christianity. This goes back to the idea that they all constructed this reality, so it must include Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, etc to account for everyone there.

  7. I guess the main problem I have with the ending is that, if this was all about love and redemption, why mess with our head with polar bears in jungle, hint of ancient civilizations, time travel and what sure looked like some fountain of youth… I mean remove all this but still keep the Dharma initiative and the others and you can still have 4-5 seasons of show all about love and redemption. That’s where I feel cheated… And if it’s so much about the characters, I guess there is too much inconsistency, change and irrationality in their behaviors for me to get that attached to them… Comparatively, I was much more attached to the characters in West Wing for example, maybe the only other long running drama show I’ve watched in its entirety…

    Finally, what kind of afterlife is that? Where souls wander around aimlessly before finding their constant and remembering what/who they really are? Where you give a son to Jack and then take it away? And that final conversation between Jack and Christian with the non-denominational stained glass in the background… Yipikaye, the world is beautiful, all the religions are wonderful and we can all go to heaven once we’re ready?
    Why is Faraday not ready? Why does Heloise know all about this and still stays in this “in-between” world? To stay with her son? And why have a shot of the wreck without anybody (any bodies) at the end? This just makes no sense…

    A friend warned me that this was gonna happen a couple of years ago, that they had no idea how to close the holes they had opened left and right, that they were just walking randomly in the direction of that final shot that they had in mind. And I have to
    say that he was right… This seems a little slapped together at the last minute… I was thinking about a way to merge the “timelines”, and Jack’s bruises to me were the signs that they were merging… I just thought they were gonna merge in a different direction.

    I guess I’m just a soulless man, I mean at least my gf spent the show crying while still finding none of the answers she/I/we were looking for. I guess I was in it more for the mythology and the cold-bloodedness of Ben (my favorite character) than the soap opera drama. But maybe the answers I’m looking for are inside me and I will need more than a TV show to dig them out…

    Anyway thanks Brandon for your commentary over the last couple of years, I’ll be sure to tune in for your second opinion on “the End”.

    PS: these last words remind me that I was finding the musical score particularly lacking and sucking in this final episode… Man am I bitter !!!

    • I know exactly what you’re saying, FrenchKheldar, as it’s exactly how I felt when the show ended. It was only in the hour that followed and this morning that I realized that it just wasn’t as important. Not to the overall message of the show, that is. Again, as I wrote above, wasn’t the journey worth it? I mean, wasn’t all the note-taking and all of the Easter eggs worth investing in if only to solve the mystery? In the end, being right or wrong about where I thought the show would go doesn’t matter. It went where it went. The fun part was doing the legwork to see if I could figure it out. Sure, there were plenty of things I wanted answered, but I can accept it.

      Again, I understand your frustration, and it’s certainly warranted. Nevertheless, it was never about Jack’s son, David. It was about Jack. It’s ALL about Jack. I think it stands to reason that David wasn’t real. I mean, the whole sideways reality wasn’t real, but what I mean is that David didn’t exist. Somehow Jack needed and was using David in that reality, to get him to where he needed to go. He was some type of construct or archetype.

      As far as Eloise goes, I’m unsatisfied with how she was handled. I admit it.

      I totally appreciate your thoughts on “The End,” as I would have thought nearly half of us would have hated it. And I’m okay with it. I don’t think people need to feel otherwise. But I guarantee that with a little bit of time and another viewing or two, we’ll realize how solid the ending is. What’s more, to question the lack of music seems odd to me, particularly considering the first two or three minutes had NO dialogue and JUST music. It was fantastic.

      • “The fun part was doing the legwork to see if I could figure it out.” But there was nothing to figure out ! At least nothing that warranted a detective work trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. If it’s about love and redemption, then it’s all about emotion, which is fine, except for the soulless like me 🙂 Again, you can’t chase a randomly moving target, especially if it uses quantum physics !

        About David, it’s interesting that you say that Jack needed and was using him. In your opinion, was this contruct the product of his mind/soul or was it provided by a higher power (the Christian Shepherd angel?) as a mean to achieve the letting go? Interesting to note that the letting go process for Jack was multistage, on top of what you’ve described here. He had first become a man of faith instead of a man of science, and then he had to accept he was just a man (even as the protector he had no visible power, which again begs the question: where does Jacob come from? Is he the son of Zeus? 🙂 ).

        Eloise: no comment 🙂

        I’m not sure I’ll watch the finale again soon but maybe that will help ! Thanks for the thoughts !

        PS: For the music, I have to say we missed the opening 2 minutes as were watching Tuesday’s episode. But I just saw it this morning. Still not particularly impressed by it. I thought the music when they meet on the ridge (Jack’s crew vs Locke’s crew) was not appropriate and in general the music didn’t leave me impressed… Too bad because music has been a very good tool for the narration all along…

        PPS: A final comment, this was the only episode this season with the first one that I watched with commercials. My gf works late and in general we can’t commit to being in front of the TV at a set time on a set day. SO I just torrent it and we watch it either the same night of the following days without commercials…. A much more satisfying experience, so maybe the breaks add to my frustration 🙂

        • A lot of great thoughts here. Again, I understand your point: we got pieces to a puzzle that couldn’t be solved. Fine. But despite that fact, I don’t really care. Again, some of my most favorite things about LOST weren’t the plot points, but the implications. Trying to figure out what it all meant was outright fun. And, yes, it would seem that many of those clues weren’t clues at all, but distractions. And, for the most part, I’m okay with that. One thing the writers ALWAYS said is that this was a show about the characters, NOT the mythology. And in the end, that’s exactly the case.

          As far as David goes, I didn’t feel a lick of sorrow that he was “taken away,” so to speak. Sure, it was partly because his relationship with Jack was too precious, but also because he never seemed real (which, as it turns out, he wasn’t). I think it was merely a tool for Jack to work out his own father/son issues.

          I’ve watched LOST with commercials for its whole run, which means I also wasn’t watching entire seasons on DVD in the span of two days. I think the weekly breaks and commercials added to the suspense. I’m so glad I watched it the way I did.

      • I’m leaning towards the idea that David was used to show Jack how difficult it was being a father. He was able to finally see it through a father’s eye and forgive his own. The entire story started with the journey of Jack claiming his father’s body, it ended when he hugged him.

  8. Still having a hard time forming any coherent thoughts regarding this finale. My instant reaction last night was anger and confusion, but that subsided fairly quickly.

    My little theory on the whole thing is that this entire season, the final season, was an alternate universe. A type of test. And not just the Sideways world, either. I think what they were trying to accomplish last season with Jughead was eventually attained in the end.

    So last season, they detonated Jughead. The thought was that time would reboot, and they would all go back to being on the original Oceanic flight before it crashed, only it would have never crash. In the beginning of this season, it seemed like that was what had happened after all. Of course, now we famously know, it was a fake-out, and we were witnessing the all new Flash Sideways World. I think when Jack recorked the island, finally fulfilling his destiny, and truly sacrificing himself for the good of not only his friends, but all mankind, that was step #1. And step #2 was all of the people in the sideways world letting go of this alternate reality that was truly false. Once those 2 steps were completed, the original reboot they were attempting with the Jughead detonation succeeded after all. I think when Jack is laying among the trees and a plane flies overhead, it’s not Lapidus and crew, but it’s actually the original Oceanic flight flying overhead the day of the crash, and of course, it doesn’t crash. Reboot achieved!

    Of course, I’m sure many will say the plane that flies overhead was indeed the Airja plane, but that was what I thought at the time. I’d be curious to see some screen captures from the episode, and see if you can tell if the plane was Oceanic or Airja.

    • Wow, Jay! Your theory of Jack watching Oceanic 815 overhead is fascinating. I truly love it. I’m not sure I agree with it, but it’s an incredible idea. I think, though, that’s the implication metaphorically, not literally. In other words, via Jack’s selfless act, he’s given the people he loves passage off the island to “reboot” their lives.

  9. Lost, when all said and done, was the story of a journey. We were allowed to see a full chapter of this journey, from start to finish, and were granted access to the final chapter. Was anything that we’ve seen real? Well, as Locke said to Boone after the induced hallucination, “It’s only as real as you make it.”

    The island and the sideways flash were all Willy Wonka’s land of pure imagination. “If you want to view paradise, simply look around and view it/ Anything you want to, do it/ Want to change the world? There’s nothing to it/” It’s a catch-all that explains a lot of the mysteries of Lost, without an outright explanation.

    I know some may be skeptical of my opinion, and I’m fine with that. I’ve been wrong many, many times, but after thinking about it, this is how I choose to interpret Lost. To achieve nirvana, you have to keep repeating your life, or some form of it, over and over again until you resolve whatever it is that’s keeping you from the great, white light. To live in accordance with Dharma, some believe, will help you achieve nirvana quicker. The island was one phase of their lives. It wasn’t the begining of the story, nor the end. It was simply a plateau where they could begin to resolve some of their issues.

    When watching the show over again, try to notice how many times characters reference the fact that they’re dead or they died. Moreover, wouldn’t it explain this fantastical world, which is of someone’s creation? A world where the creator made the rules? And when Jacob finally admitted what he had done, and what his limitations were, he was able to move on and new rules were put into play. In a land of the dead, they weren’t in purgatory. They were in another plane of consiousness.

    Take a look at the wolrd we know to be where they were all dead (the sideways flashes) and the island world. What are some of the constants? Christian’s body was missing from both (presumably because he was on a more advanced level of his healing than Jack) and they were given anything they wanted. Desmond got what he wanted most, Hurley was lucky, Jack was given a son, etc. On the island, this explains the food drops, boats, pregnancy tests, or anything else that appeared whenever they wanted or needed something. Because there’s a magic box (their brains) that had anything they ever wanted in it. Furthermore, all of them being in a place of death, so to speak, would explain fertility issues on the island. The island and the sideways were in a bubble (which is why everyone was in LA.) You can’t bring new life into a vaccuum. Ji Yeon and Aaron, we’ll get to in a moment.

    The fact that they had already died would also explain why the island “healed” them. Same reason Locke could get out of his chair in the sideways. It also explains Widmore’s and Ben’s rules. You can’t kill someone who’s already died.
    Also, in a look back, all of our character had seemingly near death experiences. Whether you reference the plane crash itsself, Claire’s car accident, Locke’s window fall, Eko and his shoot out, Charlie with his drugs, Desmond, Rousseau, Alpert, with their boat accidents, Ben getting shot, Michael getting hit by a car etc. Well, what if the flashbacks weren’t flashbacks, but also moments of recognition? Yes, all of the flashbacks seemed pertnent to the story, but they also helped the characters start to recognize or work through their issues as well. And as far as Rosseau, Claire, and Sun, I think they could have had babies because they were pregnant before they “died.”

    Desmond “died” and saw what he thought was heaven. He was merely seeing the next stage. The wolrd began to crumble, not because of the light, but because he stopped believing it was real. Remember, that’s how tinkerbell got the sickness too. Like Jack said, it’s all important. His reminds me of Richard Malkin’s daughter being dead and then coming back to life. He was so adamant not to tell anyone, even going so far as to saying he was a fraud, because he was scared. He knew she had seen that the world they were in was temporary, and it’s existence depended upon people believing it to be real. And the long con is all in the details. If you start pulling at threads, stitches come out, and counting to 5 doesn’t put them back in.

    And with that, I wanted to say,there are some references to people being enlightened in the island reality. Even our Losties are constantly referencing thngs seeming familiar or how things are supposed to happen, as if, through trial and error, they know. But, there are also those who seem to know a lot more. The aformentioned Malkin, the Widmores (I’m including Eloise,) and Mikhail in particular. Just like Bernard seemed to know everything in the dentist’s office, they too seemed to be very informed. Go back and watch their episodes. You’ll see what I mean.

    Last thing I’ll leave you with; if the island was real, why would ghosts come to see Hurley? Wouldn’t they have, in Christian’s words, “moved on.” I surmise that, like Jack’s son, the ghosts were props. Pieces on the chess board placed there to get the characters moving, but weren’t actually real.

    All in all, im satisfied with the ending, albeit sad to see it over with. I look foward to the season 1 flashbacks Brandon!

    • Sweet Jesus, MM! I don’t even know where to start with this. Really, a ton of insight and interpretation. Your take might be dead on or absolutely incorrect. Either way, I admire your thought process. Perhaps the strongest part of your take is realizing that all of those other plot elements and clues actually mattered! I, for one, would like to think they did, too, and weren’t there simply to throw us off track. Do I agree that the island existence was “pure imagination”? No. I think it happened. Why? Because there was entirely too much off-island both before and after their crash that resulted in or was affected by their time on the island.

      Additionally, I think you need to ask yourself this question: why these people? Yes, you need characters to populate a show, but why THESE characters? I promise you they weren’t the only flawed, lonely people in the universe at the time of the plane crash, nor were they the only ones with issues in their youth and so forth. These people were chosen. These people were special. They were brought to the island for a reason. They existed there, they lived there, and some died there.

      Honestly, I have to get my head around some of your comments. Great stuff, as always.

  10. I’ve got to start getting some work done so I was only really able to get through the first couple sets of comments, but I figured I would just toss in (also to start getting e-mails of the arriving comments), that I had a similar reaction right after finishing where I wasn’t quite sure how I felt. I did enjoy watching the show as an episode, but I wasn’t quite sure how I felt about the big picture. The more I think about it the happier I am. I’m not sure that I get it. I like the idea you’ve put forth of this being the story of Jack and the big picture should be understood accordingly, and I agree and appreciate all the major themes that they touched on. That the story boils down to.
    In essence, I thought it was a great watch and a nice cap off.

    I figure it’s also appropriate to say thanks for your work with these blogs and leading this running discussion. You’ve done a really great job here, and though I’ve really only been reading these for about the last half season I’ve really enjoyed it. I’m glad you’re going back to the start because I’ve been planning on going back to the beginning anyways. Should be fun. Thanks man.

    • Thanks for the kind words, WUWRobots. As much as I’ve complained about the amount of time it consumed, I really loved writing these recaps. I don’t know that my thoughts shed new light on things, but I wanted to share my thoughts nonetheless. I’ve been consumed by LOST since the beginning. I knew there had to be others out there like me.

    • Just a thing I was thinking about. I think that if the X-Files has taught me anything about big, ambiguous stories, it is to be careful what you wish for when it comes to having your questions answered. It seems like the more they showed, the more off the rails the show went. They were a slave to their own mythology and the mythology got more and more ridiculous as time went on. The more I think about it the more I think Lost did the right thing here. As much as people want, and justifiably so, answers to all of these questions from story lines that were so important for a spell, those answers could not be satisfying if they were at all definitive. It’s kind of like how the scariest monster in a monster movie is the one you don’t see.
      It may feel like kind of a cop out that they side stepped really giving the audience anything, but I think it was the right move ultimately chalking it up to “the story isn’t really about that.” Like I said, the more I think about it the happier I am. I’m probably going to watch it again either today or tomorrow. Looking forward to it.

      • I think you make a nice observation, really. Had viewers gotten everything they demanded, they would have complained that the writers dumbed it down. And as it is, they’ll complain that they weren’t given enough. Either way, people will be disappointed and complain because they expect perfection. Bad news, people: perfection is a construct that’s beyond attainment.

        • Completely agree. I think you just can’t end a show like LOST and make everyone happy. I think that’s what makes me so happy about it. They didn’t try to package everything up and put a bow on it. They took it to the core of the story, gave us a climax, and let the rest be. Sure, it would have been nice to know more, but I don’t really see it playing better any other way (though I’m listening to your podcast right now, and enjoying it by the way, and the idea of the sideways reality being a Dharma Initiative experiment could have been really interesting).

          • Do me a favor and let me know if I said anything interesting. I was entirely too drunk to remember.

          • ha.
            It’s a good listen. Right now I’m at the point where Manderson asked you what your favorite line from the show was and I really dig your choice of when Ben has just killed the Merc. guy whose name escapes me at the moment and Locke basically says “how could you do that? all those people are going to die” and Ben simply says “So.” Ben is such a great character. That was a great choice. Like I said, I also liked the idea for where the finale would go, as a DI experiment.

  11. I’m posting this without reading all of the comments (Though I got through a few and I have questions!), so hopefully it isn’t too redundant!

    First of all, I really liked it, even when watching it. I realize we didn’t get a ton of answers, but I came to terms with that a few episodes ago. I thought the ending was really well done and certainly heart warming in a sense.

    It seems that a lot of people I’ve talked to are unsure what happened. My take on it was pretty much the same as yours CB, everything on the island was real and the sideways reality was some sort of purgatory. I think a lot of people feel that way.

    My question for you CB is what is your take on what is real in the sideways purgatory reality? In your first few comments you said you liked seeing Jack hug Sawyer, even though it wasn’t real. But then later you say you were kind of annoyed by Sayid and Shannon, but is that not real too?

    I thought that all of the people that showed up in the church got their together, even though Jack in the main entity and the last that needed to let go, I thought they all got they together. I felt that in a sense all of those people were “real” in a more spiritual way and that only the things around them were not real, such as Jack’s son. People keep asking about Eloise, but was she even real? Or was she the doubt in Desmond’s mind that he was doing the right thing?

    Either way I liked it! And I’m glad some other people did too, because in my group of friends I’m hearing a lot about disappointment!

    • Okay, Manderson, let’s do this:

      1. Yeah, once you got your head around that they couldn’t get to everything, you just kind of accept it for what it is. I think that’s also why I didn’t take notes last night. I just wanted to let it wash over me in a weird sort of way.

      2. I don’t know how else to read it, frankly. I mean, it seems pretty clear, I think.

      3. None of it is real. I mean, not if we accept this as being an “afterlife” as opposed to a sideways “reality,” and I think that’s how we have to see it. What bothered me about Shannon and Sayid being together is the suggestion that they are in the next level of consciousness (Purgatory, Heaven, whatever you want to call it) together. I just feel it hard to justify that it would be Shannon over Nadia.

      4. I think what I’m saying is that, yes, all of their “souls” or whatever you want to call them are THERE in the church. And, yes, they were all waiting for Jack, in a way. My point is that we’re getting all of this through the lens of Jack, meaning how or when the rest of them arrived is, in a way, irrelevant. It’s Jack’s story. Look, some might wonder why everyone looks “the same” or haven’t aged in the church world. After all, we know Kate and Sawyer got off the island, and we can infer that Hurley and Ben were on the island for a while. The reason everyone looks that age is because that’s how Jack remembers them. We are seeing physical manifestations of his consciousness. In his mind, this is how the other people look to him.

      Tell your friends to bite me.

      • I think it’s hard for me to believe that it was only Jack letting go because there was so much that happened that didn’t involve Jack. Are you saying that the whole sideways ________ (I don’t know what to call it anymore, timeline and reality don’t seem fitting!) was a manifestation of Jack’s mind?

        • Not exactly. I’m just saying we were given the sideways “story” THROUGH Jack, essentially. He was the lens. Think about it: the entire series opened with what? Jack’s opening eye. And it ended how? With his closing eye. Everything, then, is about his perception of events.

  12. No answer would have ever been a good answer, that is my feeling. I couldn’t have been totally satisfied in any way, or so I thought. As a viewer I got so LOST in the details and mysteries of the show. With the finale fast approaching, my mind raced to find answer after and answer during each episode. In the end, it was no mystery at all. The Losties had to band together to stop Flocke and save themselves.

    In the closing moments, much like Brandon, I didn’t know what to feel or think. Mainly it was because I was sad that it was all over and I didn’t have every single question answered, but in the end I’m totally satisfied. I’m thrilled that I had the opportunity to get LOST in all of the mysteries and would gladly do it all over again.

  13. “Additionally, I think you need to ask yourself this question: why these people? Yes, you need characters to populate a show, but why THESE characters? I promise you they weren’t the only flawed, lonely people in the universe at the time of the plane crash, nor were they the only ones with issues in their youth and so forth. These people were chosen. These people were special. They were brought to the island for a reason. They existed there, they lived there, and some died there.”

    It was those characters because they found each other and needed each other. Sort of like non-sexual soul mates. Just like there were characters on island that weren’t in the sideways, not everyone is, “meant to be together.” It was through trial and error that they realized this core of people needed each other to move on. Hence, the numbers. There were characters that were introduced, but as soon as they weren’t deemed important, they went away. Like Zoe, for example. This is also why, in the “flashbacks” the characters are more connected than they realize. Because each sideways reality was drawing them closer and closer together.

    Another thing; since all they needed to do was let go, was the MiB the physical manifestation of their problems that they had to defeat or was he a devil? Mind you, while they needed to let go to move one, he was giving them something to hold on to. Claire and her baby, Sayid with Nadia, Ben with his power, etc. The more I think of it, building on my theory, we see the last two stages of their spiritual lives before nirvana. The island was the 2nd to last step. Since they used the island as much as they could to resolve certain issues, it wasn’t necessary in the final step.

    • I really like that last point MM. Great observation.

    • Love your theory MM! I’ll definitely be thinking about it when I watch the series again!

    • Yes. That is, Smokey was Faust. Smokey was the Devil. Smokey was evil incarnate. How did he get people to join them? He offered them the one thing they wanted more than anything in the world. In accepting his offer — that is, in striking a deal with the devil — you have relinquished your soul and therefore can’t move on.

      I don’t think I’m being clear about my first point. Yes, these people were all connected to one another, even though they didn’t know it. What I’m saying is, why them? I think the bigger implication is that we’re all of us connected. As Charlie Pace (badly) sings, “You, all, everybody!” The characters on the show are stand-ins for us all, and I’m okay with that. I’m just saying that it really could have been any set of characters, which in a way diminishes the importance of those they chose, no?

  14. One thing that my g/f read somewhere else, what if in the final scene when they show the wreckage of a plane if that was the Ajira flight that Frank was flying and that they crashed and died. I thought that was an interesting interpretation.

    • Wow! That’s an awfully disturbing thought. I’ll be honest, something was certainly implied by that final shot. I sincerely hope that wasn’t the intention.

      • I think they were just giving you a final glimpse of the start of it all.

        • And what annoys me the most is how sad I am knowing that its all over. I think I may have to join you in re-watching the first season because I’m not quite over it yet.

      • Did you watch the Jimmy Kimmel thing? I haven’t and really hadn’t intended to do so mainly because I knew I could read about it if something important was revealed or said.

        • I watched the first 40 minutes or so of Kimmel. I did NOT watch the alternate endings. I did, however, see the “trailer” for LOST 2: Electric Boogaloo. That shit was hilarious, outside of the fact that Ozone didn’t even look like Ozone anymore.

        • I watched it Dochielomn, not a lot was said. It’s interesting to hear how little the actors on Lost know about the show. Terry O’Quinn was asked what the smoke monster really was, and he had no idea, but did his best to explain what he thought. Naveen Andrews has never even watched the series passed the Pilot episode.

          • Yeah, that stuff was really kind of great. I particularly love the fact that Terry O’Quinn spent all of season 5 not knowing he was the Smoke Monster. Really incredible when you think about it retroactively.

  15. Of course, there is no right answer to any of this. The writers gave us no answers. They gave us lots of room for us to interpret what happened. They did this intentionally, so that we’d talk about it; so that we could explain everything the way we wanted to explain it.

    I’m much more of a literal person (that’s probably why I’m an accountant). I always hated reading books in high school to interpret the deeper meaning. Isn’t it possible to just tell a story at face value?

    Anyway, I always pretty much knew I’d be disappointed in the end of this story. And I pretty much knew that they would leave us with some vague resolution. But I think they even outdid my expectation. Maybe I’ll change my mind later (or from reading the analysis of others), but I didn’t like the way they ended this.

    They spent 5+ years building up various things. They spent 2(?) years building up a big war that is going to happen between Widmore and MiB and/or Ben and/or the Island, and that all just seemed to fizzle out to me. Ben just shoots Widmore.

    I enjoyed the journey, and don’t regret the journey, but I sure would have liked to see more resolution, and tying up more loose ends. But that’s just me and my simpleton literary ways.

    • Again, Richie, I totally understand where you’re coming from, and I don’t fault you one bit for being disappointed. I fully expected to be of the same mind. It’s only after watching the episode and really thinking about that I can accept it for being beautiful and let the expectations go.

      Did they gloss over entirely too many plot points? Absolutely. But I would absolutely NEVER dismiss the show for being too “deep” and requiring interpretation. Shows like this one begged for it; that’s why it was so much fun. If all you wanted was surface enjoyment, I would think you would have loved the relationships on LOST and simply dismissed the mythology.

      Literature is cool!

      • It’s the mythology of LOST that kept me coming back starting with season 1. “What the heck is/is in that hatch?” I didn’t keep watching LOST because I wanted to know if Jack and Kate or Sayid and Shannon were going to fall in love. It’s almost like we were duped in to watching a love story about characters by teasing us with mysteries. Bait and switch I say!

        • Those filthy sons of bitches!

          Again, I know what you’re saying. Believe me, as I noted on my podcast, I was intrigued by the thought all of this was a DI experiment. Sadly, that wasn’t the case.

      • I’m with Richie in terms of my mind is more analytical, maybe that’s why I became an engineer and never really cared about creative writing class. For the finale, I’m in the middle. I can’t say I loved how it ended but I can’t say I hated it either (on a side note, I think the only series finale I’ve ever fully enjoyed was how they ended The Wire). Originally last night, before I went to bed it was more like “WTF was that all about, they didn’t asnwer X, Y, or Z” but then this morning I thought about it and just came to terms that the finale was what it was and was fine with it. As it was mentioned previously, provided you enjoyed the ride, that’s what really matters.

        The reason I enjoyed the show was more about learning about the island and what it was and how all of the characters were connected to each other and finally what was going to be their fate. Plus, it sparked topics such as free will vs. fate. The sutff that I didn’t really care about were details like “what book was Jacob reading when Locke got pushed out of a window” (something like, what comes up must come down). Yeah, it’s a neat little twist on things but not something that I wanted to spend a lot of time about thinking.

        Either way, great show and I’ll look forward to the season 1 recaps!

        • Slight typo at the end, “a neat little twist but not something that I wanted to spend a lot of time *thinking about”.

        • Yeah, it sounds like you and I had the same reaction. I honestly was floored when it ended, simply because I wasn’t sure what just happened. I was in a state of shock, I think.

          This is where I have to disagree. I loved the moral/ethical battle that took place throughout the series, as well as trying to come up with what it all meant. Equally, though, I loved all the literary references and easter eggs. I took great joy in analyzing and thinking about how the various literary references applied to LOST. And by the way, Jacob was reading Flannery O’Connor’s Everything That Rises Must Converge, which is a fantastic collection.

          See you all for season 1. Again, I’ll try to get on a regular schedule so you folks can watch/read along.

  16. While I was watching the retrospective prior to the finale, they showed some of the old scenes of Smokey coming and shaking trees as he approached. Had I just gotten used to it, or did they quit using the shaking trees effect for the approach of Smokey during the last season or so?

    • Yeah, that got away from it. The Smoke Monster was much scarier when we rarely saw it and really didn’t know what in the hell it was.

    • It also used to rain when it was around! And make crazy alarm noises. Now it just clicks. It was way more frightening back then.

      • The other “noise” that used to surround the Smoke Monster was that of horns, as if it was being summoned. That effect went away, as well. I mean, I understand their need to “humanize” Smokey, as it was obviously revealed to have once been a man. Still, I preferred the former rendition, when Smokey was more mysterious.

        Also, as it was never truly confirmed, can we agree that NotMom (Smokey and Jacob’s “mother”) was, in fact, a Smoke Monster, as well? I still say that’s the case.

  17. Cant wait for your recaps of the new ABC turd “The Gates”. That show looks really good.

    • Oh, I totally can’t wait. I think it’s going to be awfully good, just like V.

  18. Also, where do you get your stills from the show?

  19. Honestly, the more of your responses I read and the more I think about last night, the more things I’m reminded of that I actually kind of love. For instance, this little nugget just dawned on me.

    Doesn’t it now seem fitting that during the flashforwards, everyone had to return to the island TOGETHER. And in leaving the island with FLocke, he needed to get everyone TOGETHER. It’s as if things can’t/don’t work right unless they’re all TOGETHER, which is essentially the point they made at the end of the episode. That is, all the people Jack loves and love him surround him. They can now move on TOGETHER, now that Jack has let go. Kind of awesome, really.

  20. Also, here’s another thought. After Juliet detonated jughead, we hear her talking about “going dutch for coffee” and she says, “It worked.” All this time we’ve been speculating that she was referring to rebooting things by detonating the bomb. And even though “it worked” (only not how she intended), don’t we actually learn that “it worked” was in reference to turning the vending machine off and on to fetch the Apollo candy bar? Pretty funny and ironic, really.

  21. Hey Brandon! I’ve lurked here ever since you told me about the site a few seasons ago while we were playing poker at Jared’s place (another unposted episode of the wandering jew). I’ve always appreciated the format of your posts and the great discussion afterward. I had to join the discussion after this unforgivable finale.

    I have one new question (add that to the list of fifty I had going in)… Why did Jack not turn into the Smoke Monster when he replaced the stone and the pool/light returned? I, for one, would have found the ending much better if Hurley took the ‘Jacob’ role, and Jack took the ‘Smokey’ role. They could have ended it with Ben choosing sides (ambiguously as usual with his shit eating grin).

    They were obviously paying close attention to the Six Feet Under finale (one of the few series finales that was well received) and decided to opt for emotional closure of characters’ situations. When a show spends six years primarily asking questions and getting folks invested in finding the answers, I don’t really get how they think they can just leave them all hanging. This episode didn’t answer a single question and that’s just disappointing. They may have jerked a few tears out of our wives and girlfriends by bringing everybody together, but those of us who watched the show for the “science” and “mythology” were left to hash it out on forums and blogs until we’re blue in the face. They built one of the most impressive webs of mythology in the history of media. They told us they were setting a firm end so that they could tie everything up. They left us hanging on 95% of it and gave us a 150 minute (minus a solid 45-50 minutes of commercials) Survivor town-hall.

    It was a carefully crafted cop out, made entirely because they knew that they would never please everyone or answer everything. They chose to essentially answer nothing, and for that this show will be retired to the Whitey Hall of History, filed under “A” for the Assholery of this finale and the Answers we’ll never get.

    Whitey: “Thanks for making such an epic show! I’ve never missed an episode. So how does it end? What was A,B,C—-Z about?”

    Writers: “Those things are unimportant. How do YOU think it ended?”

    Whitey: “Eat a bag of shit, you pretentious, dickhole writers. This show was great until you sucked the life out of it with your liberal hollywood feel good shit. I hope someone dips a sharp pencil in a bowl of AIDS and stabs your mothers in the forehead.”

    Maybe that was a little harsh, but damn am I disappointed.

    • Funny you should mention that about Jack, whitey. When I saw him laying on the rocks after coming out the other side, I had the exact same thought. I said, could you imagine how insane it would be if, after all of this, it was Jack who emerged as the new Smoke Monster? I can’t necessarily answer your question, though.

      As far as them having a two-and-a-half-hour finale, clearly they added the extra 30 minutes to encapsulate more advertising, which is kind of shitty. But even though I admittedly love the mythology and science, I’m still okay with how it ended. I’m sure this has become evident based on my comments above.

      Also, the funny thing about your bit of dialogue exchange is, according to TMZ, that conversation is an EXACT transcription of what happened. How you knew, I have no idea!

      Thanks so much for writing in, sir.

      • How did Jack get out of the cave/pit anyway?

        • Well, as we saw him laying on the rocks (a la Man in Black after being sent down into the cave of light), I would have to guess Jack simply came out the other end. Weird, yes, but that still seems to be the case.

      • Yeah. When he was laying on the rock, I was stoked. I wonder if they filmed it that way to throw the cast and crew off the trail (maybe they filmed other stuff pointing that way, too).

        I’m totally cool with the way they wrapped up the characters that they did. I would have liked to see Mr. Eko and a Hanso or two, but I get that there wasn’t time.

        The problem I have is that the Island was the deepest, most mysterious and most interesting character on the show. Failing to wrap up and answer the biggest questions we have about it is just disappointing no matter how you receive the rest of it.

        If they fail to release a special or movie that ties up the mythology (or even a set of webisodes), that would be sad. I’d hate to think that all of those late nights trolling the forums and searching out clues and rewatching episodes to see it all tie together was for nothing.

        I did go a little TMZ there at the end. I guess I’m taking it all too personally. I’m not a Star Wars geek, but I would say that this finale to me was equivalent to the disappointment those fans received with Lucas’ rape of Episodes 1-3, or the collective “WTF?” I had watching Indiana Jones survive a nuclear blast by hiding in a freezer (and the even less exciting replacement of short round with that annoying Shia kid). I’m seeing a pattern. Was Lucas involved in this finale?? 🙂

        • I think a lot of people wanted to see Eko, and I have to guess it was merely a scheduling/contractual conflict that kept it from happening. As far as Hanso goes, addressing it would have meant addressing the Dharma Initiative, which is something they clearly opted not to stick with in the finale. Yes, the fact that I didn’t really get closure on the DI bugs me, but the actual finale remains fantastic in itself.

          And, yes, I absolutely concur that the island didn’t get a proper send-off. Next to Jack, the island was the most important “character” on the show. It was always that way. Whether it was Locke’s insistence that the island was special, Jack’s insistence that “We have to go back,” or Ben’s deep-rooted need/want to be its leader/protector, the island and its magical/mysterious properties was a staple. Did it get its fair time in the end? No, not really.

          And I would compare the finale more to Jedi than any of the first three films, which were abominations. Jedi was flawed, but still great. That’s more akin to the LOST finale.

  22. So just finished the podcast and I had to say that it was enjoyable. The last hour or so felt more like an LCS Hockey show once Larry and Dave called in (not that I’m complaining as it was good fake radio). Dell mentioned at the end that you might need to do another final wrap up podcast, any chance of taking another stab at it and doing one this week or weeekend? Or is this blog good enough?

    • Well, it’s possible. I’ll be on Dell’s show this Wednesday night, only it’s not a LOST podcast. Still, I won’t be surprised if there’s mention of the show.

      As far as another LOST podcast goes, yeah, maybe. I won’t guarantee it for this weekend, but I won’t rule it out completely.

  23. Oh man. I was talking to a barista about the finale (for a good 15-20 minutes) and I told him that I have a good friend who writes recaps on his blog everyweek. Out of no where his HOT female co-worker says, “I bet he doesn’t get laid much.”

    Classic.

    • That’s nothing short of an attack.

  24. Another nice piece of foreshadowing, looking back, was Sun’s garden. Jack said it felt like, “100 years ago” since it was planted. Again, giving credence to the fact that time has no meaning. But, I guess the time travel does that as well.

    But every plant was dead, except for the lone tomato, because no one told him/her that it was supposed to die. Or, moreover, since Jack had picked it off, no one told the tomato it was already dead. Oh, and the tomato was a definate red shirt. 🙂

    • Ha! That’s a pretty hilarious observation, sir.

  25. If anybody is interested, Doc Jensen did a podcast on NPR about LOST: http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast.php?id=510053

  26. On a personal note, I just wanted to say Holy Hell! You guys, both readers and commenters, absolutely killed my site yesterday! Without getting into numbers, my blog nearly doubled its normal readership when posting a LOST entry. I just wanted to thank all of you for reading and writing in. Your comments have been one of the best parts of doing this damn thing.

    Also, just a programming note: I’m thinking that I’ll be watching the first episode of LOST sometime this week. I’ll keep you posted.

  27. Re: Brandon and Manderson
    Subj: Smoke Monster

    The smoke monster was definately scarier when he was a mystery. What’s more, he was scarier when we didn’t know his motivations, and it seemed like he randomly picked people to kill. A lot of his intimidation went away once we knew he couldn’t kill the candidates.

    As far as Mother being the smoke monster, I think she was maybe some incarnation of it, but not the same thing. I think that Jacob, when he calims he, “made him that way,” actually turned him into that form of the smoke monster. Mother had already put it in Jacob’s mind that something terrible would happen if someone went down there. Also, he was full of rage when he tossed MiB down. Therefore, that version of the monster was spawned. Because Jacob was making the rules and mapping out his game.

    Jack and Desmond went down there and nothing happened to them. But no one told them that something horrible would happen either. Again, the power of the imagination.

    One thing that doesn’t seem to tie into any of this is Jacob’s cabin. I haven’t really put much thought in to it, and maybe I will, but offhand, why did they burn the cabin down? And who was really in there? And was the ash a trap or protection?

    • I would totally agree, MM, that our fear about the Smoke Monster was greater when the characters’ fear was greater. That is, they never knew when, where or why it would appear, so we shared their suspense. Now, after we realized it was reading/judging people, it took on a whole new (and even cooler) meaning in my mind.

      As far as NotMom, I am not seeing she was THE smoke monster, but A smoke monster. Hell, there were other bones at the bottom of the pit. I wouldn’t be shocked to learn there were other smoke monsters before her!

      Well, look at this way with Desmond and Jack: the rules don’t apply to the former, and the latter was the island’s protector when he went down. Not surprisingly, nothing happened to them.

      I am convinced that Smokey was inhabiting the cabin. Hell, we know Smokey told Jack that it was him in the form of Christian Shephard who Jack chased around the island. That being the case, I think that was Smokey’s jail, so to speak. The ash was keeping Smokey in, not out.

  28. I don’t know either way, but for argument’s sake I’ll state this: Why burn the cabin down after he got out? You don’t demolish a jail if a prisoner escapes.

    Also, Jacob knew where Jack woke up, and says as much. We know in that extra mobisode that Christian sends Vincent to wake Jack up. Is Jacob just ominpotent and knew everything, or was white suit Christian Jacob?

    • Perhaps burning it down was a way to ensure he couldn’t escape/return to the cabin? Perhaps the cabin, even though it was a holding cell of sorts, also kept Smokey safe? I’m merely speculating, of course.

      Again, what is the determination on the mobisode? Is it Canon?

  29. I would assume the mobisodes are to be taken at face value. I don’t think they would put them out there with conflicting information. Especially since the writers know how many fans they have that would read into these things. And that’s another thing. If he was trapped in the cabin, how could he be running around as Christian?

    • Actually, that’s a good point about Christian. Stumped.

  30. Random question: At the end of season 2, when Desmond released the energy at the hatch, there were 2 Russian guys sitting in a capsule in the snow who detected the energy and then called Penny to let her know. Who were those guys? I assume they worked for Widmore, but were they ever explained?

  31. If memory serves, they were actually Portoguese, but I digress. As far as I’m concerned, I was always satisfied with the notion that they were working not for Widmore, but for his daughter, Penny, who was still looking for Des. She, after all, was the daughter of a very wealthy man and could certainly afford to search for him.

    • Yeah, I’m pretty sure that Penny even actually tells us that those guys worked for her as she had been trying to locate the island or Desmond or something like that.

  32. As for the Jacob’s Cabin question- I’m thinking this is more of a writer’s goof or something they wrote about and then just forgot to finish off. Either way, I forget but was the ash trail broken? I think it was. Assuming that it was, then it was probably some type of holding cell for Smokey and somehow someone let him free. I also forget who is responsible for buring it down. If it was Smokey, well, pretty obvious why he would want to burn it down. If it was Widmore’s people, then maybe it was just an act of destruction. If it was Ilana and company, then maybe it was more of a ceremony since Jacob was dead. Either way, I don’t think anyone had the power to put Smokey back into his “cell”.

    • Yes, the circle of ash was broken, as confirmed by Ilana and Bram. Furthermore, it was their crew who burned the cabin to the ground in season 5. What’s more, they wouldn’t have burned it to commemorate Jacob’s death, because A) Jacob was still alive at that point; and B) they THOUGHT Jacob was still alive at that point.

  33. I’m telling you, the more I think about it, there has to be something to my theory that they had died many times, each time striving for nirvana.

    Just the fact that Ben and Sayid were brought back to life, but were unable to remember certain things before their death, or after the initial point of death, speaks volumes.

    Also, episodes with titles like, “this place is death,” Desmond’s saying of see you in another life, Nadia telling Sayid, “find me in the next life,” and even the fact that flight 815 was found in the ocean. Originally, we all thought it was a big coverup and conspiracy, but that was never revealed to be the truth.

    Or, what about Sayid pontificating about where he’ll go when he dies? How he said it won’t be a very nice place. (I think the island and the events that were about to happen qualifies.)

    I listened to the Bill Simmons podcast and the general consensus was that there wasn’t enough ambiuity. I disagree. I think there are many ways to interpret the ending, and, for that matter, the whole story. And I’m pretty sure that there are clues that support many different, even conflicting arguments.

    • Nope, you’re wrong. Christian said that everything that happened was real. The island life was real. Then as everybody died over the next 50 years, they all meet at the church for purgatory. The end.

      All the other crap that they said on the show, like “see you in another life” was just bullshit that they didn’t feel like following up on. It was all just a tease to get you to tune in next week.

      • Sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude to you. After reading and listening to various Lost theories the past 2 days, I have gotten more bitter about the finale. For some reason I just feel annoyed that they spent 5+ years telling a multi-pronged story and then only resolving a portion of it.

  34. Richie, I wish people would stop calling the sideways a purgatory. Isn’t purgatory a mainly Christian idea? Well, I highly doubt the church of all religions would embrace the ideals of one theology so strongly.

    I contend that everything was real. The island, the sideways, the flashbacks, etc. Christian said one thing, other characters have had said other things, such as, “dead is dead.” And they’re all true. My interpretation of this all is that they’ve lived maybe a thousand lives, and through trial and error, they were able to find the people they needed and resolve the issues that needed to be resolved to find nirvana. The “purgatory” as everyone calls it is a real as any other place. People feel love, pain, experience death, birth, etc. Basically, everything that happened on the island, or in life.

    • There are lots of religions on Earth, and I am pretty confident that most of them are wrong about the afterlife. So no matter what all the different religions believe, there is only one truth about what happens when you die. Apparently the Lost theory is that you gather with all the people who were with you for the most important part of your life and then (possibly) you all move on together. (Even if you never met Penny she is still an important part of your life, I guess.)

  35. @Major Minority and @Richie

    I think all you need to do is go back to that scene in the church (which, upon further review, must be the church where the visited Eloise, yes) and you’ll see that the stained-glass window had emblems of (I think!) six different religions. I think the point is that it isn’t necessarily the Christian version of purgatory (despite the fact that it’s CHRISTIAN Shephard leading Jack), but the notion that all religions are, in a sense, right. In other words, it’s not about defining it by the accepted standards of what religion dictates, but by saying that they are in a purgatory-like state — an ante-room — waiting to go onto the next phase.

    And, MM, I’m sorry, but I don’t agreee with your notion of them having experienced several lives/incarnations. It’s not that your logic is flawed, but I just don’t see that as being the point. I think it’s much simpler than that. We, all of us, are connected to others. We define (and are defined by) the people we love. To move on to “Heaven,” we must let go and accept the fact that we are not capable of doing things for ourselves, by ourselves. We need the love and support of others, as we are all interconnected.

  36. I can dig what you’re saying, CB. I’m going to assume you didn’t listen to the Simmons podcast because you were too busy copulating with a high life, but they brought up two interesting points:

    1) What if the place they went to wasn’t a bright light, but darkness? How differently would people have percieved the ending?

    2) They mention that the ending reminded them of the movie, “What Dreams May Come.” That mvoie, I hear, was horrible. But the novel, on the other hand, was far superior. I looked up the plot summary on the ole wikipedia, and it was very interesting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Dreams_May_Come

  37. Unanswered questions: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

  38. Hilarious:

    http://www.sweetney.com/linkblog/2010/05/a-lost-ending-that-might-make-more-sense.html

  39. So, i listened to LCS, what’s the deal? A Lost finale podcast coming this weekend or later on?

    • Sadly, I don’t think I’m doing a LOST podcast this weekend. I’m truly exhausted.

  40. Well, firstly thanks to the Blog-master and to everybody for the comments, insights and ideas…here are mine (randomly):

    1) same fallacies/incongruencies are hard to rationalize…for example in “purgatory/flash sideways” why/how can Claire give again the birth to Aroon..in the real life they both escaped the island and maybe lived each another 50 years in the real world…or we should image that Aroon also is dead and “chose” to join the others manifestating himself as a baby…similarly Sun is pregnant…really ???

    2) as of the unanswered topic (especially Dharma), here is a possible time-line (chronological):

    in our remote past somehow humans find the “island” (Atlantis?) and institutionalize/build a cult (and a way to deal with) its “light”? maybe even Egyptians find it.

    The two sons of a roman lady who ship-wrecked on the island are initiated to this magic cult, by one of the last keepers.

    MIB ends up (because of his anger and contingencies) to become light’s nemesis, threating whole existence should he (now it) leave the island, which is (in a way) in another dimension

    Jacob recruits Ricardus, to help him in his task (caretaker)

    Lead by Ricardus the “others” establish in the island.

    In the 70’s DHARMA project starts, aimed at an industrial/scientific exploitation of island magic powers (the light); eventually in good faith, not knowing the holy-carachter of the light nor the danger in messing up with Mib (for the whole world)

    Therefore, the others fight the DHARMAS and with Ben’s help whipe them out…

    The others then continue to guard the island, eventually messing up with para-scientific experiments as well — I guess the aim is to allow self-reprodution of natives (others) so to perpetuate a legacy of “caretakers” (rather then have Jacob bringing on candidates years after years); that’s why Juliet is recruted.

    Nevertheless jacob “call” the Oceanics in…which will be tested by the others in due time…

    Some of the others maverick-out (Widmore) or even split in factions anyhow…

    For the following developments the show gives many (although not all the) answers

    Ciao, Nicola

    • Holy hell, Nicola! Not only do I appreciate the comments, but yours is my first response from Italy! Now then…

      1. Well, you have to remember that we’re seeing Jack’s perception of “dead” at the end. That is, we are seeing them as he remembers them. We have no sense of when all of the other folks died; rather, they are all dead at that point and we are seeing them through Jack’s perspective.

      2. You’re pretty much on the right track with this, Nicola. I honestly have no idea who wrote it, but someone made the point on another blog (perhaps one of the show’s writers, even) that DHARMA had a much greater purpose than I gave it credit for. Much like you’ve surmised, it would make sense that the DI found the island (or were brought there) in the same manner, say, as the Black Rock. MiB, in his typical manner, figured he could corrupt one of its members (Ben Linus) as part of his master plan to one day find a loophole and get off the island. In other words, everything Ben does from his childhood on the island going forward was ignited by MiB putting his plan into action when Ben was a boy. The DI needed to be gassed by Ben, who wanted freedom from his abusive father and wanted to hook up with Richard and company. He would eventually assume leadership of their faction and in his own mind rule the island, answering only to the mysterious Jacob (who, in fact, he was never really answering to at all). Everything Ben would do from there on out — with the Oceanic Crew and everything else — was put into play by MiB. In other words, Ben’s explanation that “It was [the Smoke Monster] who summoned ME.” Ben thought he was in control, when all the while he was being duped and led by Smokey.

      Thanks so much for your thoughts, Nicola, and come back for my rewatching of season 1.

  41. Thanks to you “cousin”!…just like the island Rome can be jus around the corner…

    I’ll try to stay in touch for the re-watch…I agree on point 1, it makes perfectly sense…although there is some objectiveness over there as well..the way Sawyer and Juliet meet again (and see each other) it is not “technically” through the eyes of Jack…but of ocurse can be framed, in a way or the other, in the overall explanation

    Thanks for your comments on point 2 as well; actually I had lost (!)…forgotten…Smokey summoning little Ben..maybe because of his meeting in the bush with Richard (which I did remember)…in light of that encounter I assumed that the “others lead by Richard” would independently fight the DI, simply because the latter were “invaders” and a possible threat to the island and the light…

    Ciao e a presto, Nicola

  42. Re: Nicola

    “1) same fallacies/incongruencies are hard to rationalize…for example in “purgatory/flash sideways” why/how can Claire give again the birth to Aroon..in the real life they both escaped the island and maybe lived each another 50 years in the real world…or we should image that Aroon also is dead and “chose” to join the others manifestating himself as a baby…similarly Sun is pregnant…really ???”

    I think we have to stop thinking of the sideways as a purgatory or a manufactured reality. Again, I contend that thinking like that is somewhat misleading, and not at all what was stated. Again, everything matters. Everything is, to quote Locke, “as real as you made it.” The sideways was another reality where they experienced a past, a birth, they had a family history, etc. The whole sideways existence was a world unto itself. And while they were raptured, or nirvanaed, or whatever happened, where they left, that world is still going to exist. They may even still be in this world. At least their bodies will be, even if their souls won’t. Or maybe it was a heaven’s Gate Cult thing, where they all “died” in the sideways. Either way, everything happend there over again because it WASN’T a snowglobe. It was a whole world.

    Re: CB
    ” 1. Well, you have to remember that we’re seeing Jack’s perception of “dead” at the end. That is, we are seeing them as he remembers them. We have no sense of when all of the other folks died; rather, they are all dead at that point and we are seeing them through Jack’s perspective.”

    Again, the Jack’s perspective theory has the one big hole in it: If this is Jack’s private world to help him let go, how can Ben stay when Jack is no longer around? Everything that happened, happened. And maybe even happened several times, albeit with slight variables? But also with constants. No?

    • I disagree with you on this, MM. The whole Ben staying thing can simply be an out, a way for Ben NOT to be part of Jack’s perception of the people most important to him. Think about it: would Ben truly be one of those people to “move on” into whatever Heaven or Nirvana or wherever it is he and the rest of the folks inside the church are going to? No way. Ben was obviously a vital cog in terms of making sure Jack got to where he needed to go, but to suggest that Jack has the same sort of love for Ben (if ANY) as he does for, say, Hurley or Kate, is irrationale. What I’m getting at is that to call the sideways story an alternate “reality” doesn’t add up, in that it’s the exact opposite of “reality.” Is this a question of semantics? Perhaps. That is, perhaps I’m being too literal about the terminology.

      And by the way, Happy Birthday, MM! Come on, people. Give the man his due.

  43. Well, thank you Brandon, I’m getting to be a very old man.

    But anyway, we’ll have to just disagree. As Richie mentioned, Penny wasn’t important to Jack. Nor was Bernard, really. And again, the notion that ghosts or spirits being on the original timeline seems weird, if there’s another purgatory they can move on to, right? And don’t tell me it’s cause they’re stuck because of sins. Ana Lucia was a bad egg, Veruca Salt style.

    And everyone is assuming again, in terms of purgatory, Sawyer and co getting off the island, Aaron growing up, etc. Just like we all assumed Lapidus was dead. We can’t assume with Lost, as far as I’m concerned. Aaron and Ji Yeon, may be just like David. They were there as props, and then went away. It would be an odd thing for NONE of the kids to be raised by their parents.

    We have to suspend our disbeliefs. We can’t definately say that the reality with Smoke monsters and lights that heal cancer are real and the other is not. And I still look at inconsistancies in the island timeline, like Charlie, a devout Catholic, doing the cross thing backwards when he died.

    • Yes, but Penny was important to Des, and Des was most CERTAINLY important to Jack. Same goes for Bernad to Rose, who was also the one who told Jack, “You can let go now.” As far as Ana Lucia goes, she wasn’t ready to move on, remember?

      Ji Yeon and Aaron were most certainly real; David was merely a tool for Jack to reconcile his own father/son issues. What’s more, I don’t think we’re asssuming anything. I mean, we’ve now seen the entire show. It’s over. We’re making determinations based on the evidence given to us. We’d only really be assuming if there were more episodes to come. We have a complete series; let’s judge it.

      Yeah, I think we CAN say that it was real. Most definitely, in fact. That is a contradiction to your own argument. I mean, you want to suggest the suspension of disbelief, but then imply that the Smoke Monster wasn’t real?

      • Yeah, I think we definitely have to assume that everything that happened in the main timeline is real. I think more than once we heard people on the island say “what happened, happened”. I think we have to take that literally.

        We may also have to assume the sideways timeline was real, but I’m less sure of this.

        • Again, Richie, I can’t get on board with the sideways timeline being “real,” mainly because, well, it wasn’t. That is, think about the manner in which events unfolded. How there really WAS no sense of time. How people miraculously recovered from injury INSTANTLY! For instance, Locke had spinal surgery and was walking and was no longer bruised from the car accident? Ben no longer had his injuries after Des whooped his ass? Sun was out of the hospital after suffering a gun shot wound? Sorry, but none of this seems “real” to me.

          • I agree that the sideways timeline was definitely not any kind of real timeline in the sense that we know time. But LOST is proposing that when you die, you go to this sideways timeline and then go to the church, and then walk to the light (or at least this is how Jack’s perception of death works). But did Jack live a whole life up to the point he went in the church, or did his sideways life only begin from the point where we first saw him there? Were the memories of his past (in the sideways timeline) just “implanted” in his brain, or did he really experience them?

  44. Hi everyone,

    Now that everything’s been settle; and we had time to reflect a bit on everything, I finally understood what bothers me more, about the finale…

    The fact is that the finale would have worked well also without the “island”, the “dharma” and all the mistery-stuff we have been watching for 6 years (!)

    I mean: you could have any group of people sharing very intimate, emotional and spiritual bound (for example being held 6 years long by talebans terrorists in Afghanistan, or fighting together in WWII alike “band of brothers” or sharing any other strong comrades feelings, etc ) and then you could have all of them meeting again (after their death) in purgatory/sideway ready to move on…

    In few words: all the “island stuff” it is not necessary to the serie finale. You can relate to it of course (after all the “island” enhance the spiritual capabilities of the people, allows to travel in time experiencing what-if alternate lives, even hosts speaking dead etc…) but all in all you don’t REALLY/STRICTLY need any of the island mysteries to get to the finale we had — it makes sense by itself, it just take to have a bunch of people loving each other and that went though a hard time (any).

    Secondly (still reviewing the whole plot) I have to admit that all the Dharma-babble (stations, experiments, numbers to digit, new-phisics, synchronicities, etc etc) should have really been resolved in all details ….

    Ciao, Nicola

    • Well, Nicola, I can’t completely disagree with your point. But on the other hand, who in the hell would have watched a single season of a show? Yes, I know I’m making a naive statement and it’s not to be taken completely literally, but you get my point. Look, I said the same thing to a friend of mine, that, in fact, it feels like the final season could have happened at any time, and we didn’t necesarrily need 6 seasons to get there. At the same time, I’ve stated that it’s the journey and NOT the destination that has made LOST great (even though I thought the finale was, in fact, great). Go back and look at all that happened to get us to our endgame. Would you REALLY have rather they skipped so many of those amazing episodes? Not me!

  45. Richie wrote:

    “I agree that the sideways timeline was definitely not any kind of real timeline in the sense that we know time. But LOST is proposing that when you die, you go to this sideways timeline and then go to the church, and then walk to the light (or at least this is how Jack’s perception of death works). But did Jack live a whole life up to the point he went in the church, or did his sideways life only begin from the point where we first saw him there? Were the memories of his past (in the sideways timeline) just “implanted” in his brain, or did he really experience them?”

    No, I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. Again, Jack didn’t die until the very end of the finale, yet we see him in the flash sideways the entire season. Therefore, you don’t go to the sideways timeline WHEN you die. The two worked together in that he couldn’t die (on the island) until he let go, yet he couldn’t let go completely (sideways) until he died (on the island). I think the two were dependent upon each other, but not because the sideways was “real.”

  46. CB, my counter, if you will:

    “Yes, but Penny was important to Des, and Des was most CERTAINLY important to Jack. Same goes for Bernad to Rose, who was also the one who told Jack, “You can let go now.” As far as Ana Lucia goes, she wasn’t ready to move on, remember?”

    I think you missed the point, with the Ana Lucia thing. What I’m saying is, how can she be in the flash sideways if we’re to believe Michael was stuck on the island because of what he did? If there is a “purgatory,” in a literal sense, wouldn’t all of the “ghosts” have moved there? Charlie visted Hurley. He wasn’t stuck on the island, and he was in the flash sideways. Just wanted to know how that works out.

    “Ji Yeon and Aaron were most certainly real; David was merely a tool for Jack to reconcile his own father/son issues. What’s more, I don’t think we’re asssuming anything. I mean, we’ve now seen the entire show. It’s over. We’re making determinations based on the evidence given to us. We’d only really be assuming if there were more episodes to come. We have a complete series; let’s judge it.”

    And as far as Penny being important to Des… well, wouldn’t their son, Charlie, also be important? Or Ji Yeon to the Kwons? That is, if he/she wasn’t just Des’ version of David. And of course we can make assumptions. That’s the whole reason the producers are in “radio silence.” So that people can digest, process, and discuss the series without having specifics spelled out for them.

    “Yeah, I think we CAN say that it was real. Most definitely, in fact. That is a contradiction to your own argument. I mean, you want to suggest the suspension of disbelief, but then imply that the Smoke Monster wasn’t real?”

    No, no, no. I’m saying EVERYTHING is real. The island and the flashes. I was saying that to believe one is fake because time seemed meaningless is silly. There were a lot of absurdities in both realities. You reference, in the sideways, Locke having the spinal surgery and being fine right after. Well, on the island timeline, I seem to recall Mikhail treating a Naomi wound that was pretty bad and him saying it would be fine in a day or so, because, “things tend to heal quickly here.” Same thing with Locke getting cured of his paralysis on the island, and his muscles hadn’t atrophied at all.

    Anyway, I still contend that it was, as Desmond always said, “anotha life.” Not a purgatory. And there are so many references in the show to another life, things seeming familiar, things not going the way that they’re “supposed” to go, etc. Are we to totally discount them because of what we presume from 1 scene?

    • Ana Lucia didn’t betray Jack. What’s more, she was murdered by Michael. Perhaps she simply wasn’t ready to move on because she wasn’t important to Jack’s “letting go.” In Jack’s perception of this sideways world, Ana Lucia is more of an afterthought than a figure of circumstance/importance. As far as Charlie goes, he visited Hurley OFF the island. He was a sympathetic character who had redeemed himself and made amends for his “sins.” Therefore, I have no problem with Charlie visiting Hurley off-island whereas Michael was on-island.

      Keep in mind, MM, that Jack never met Des and Penny’s son, Charlie, so why would Charlie be in Jack’s perception of Heaven/Nirvana/Afterlife? Furthermore, Jack interacted with Penny. Her boat rescued him and the rest of the Oceanic 6.

      Yes, but we’ve accepted the island as having a magical property to it. Hell, Smoke Monsters fly around and kill people. Paralyzed people walk. Cancer-ridden individuals beat their cancer. People die and return to life. But these types of things don’t happen in the “real” world. We accept them on the island, because that’s where we can suspend our disbelief. Do you mean to say that we should be accepting things like Locke recovering in a matter of moments as “real”? That Jack should just happen to have a bleeding neck on three separate occasions despite the fact that he has not sustained any sort of injury?

      It IS “another life”; it’s an “AFTERlife.” But an afterlife is not a REAL life, or a secular one, that is. And I think that’s the point I’ve been trying to make. The sideways world wasn’t “real,” and I stand by that.

  47. If you haven’t already seen it, check out the new mix I posted on my blog today. It’s entitled “John Locke,” and it’s compliments of my boy, Mike.

  48. Maybe I’m not articulating what I’m trying to say clearly enough. I’ll give it another go, though.

    If there’s an afterlife, not merely another reality you can travel to, how is Charlie in both places at the same time? How is there a ghost Charlie on the island timeline, and a Charlie also on the flash timeline? And as far as Michael goes, he surely redeemed himself more than Ana Lucia, no? The requirements to get in are sketchy, at best, when it comes to the purgatory.

    And yes, we’ve accepted the island was magical, but we’ve also seen the “real” world have magical properties as well. Walt summoning birds, Michael being unable to kill himself, Locke’s story about the dog that eased his mother’s pain regarding his sister’s death, even the “miracles” that Jack perfromed in surgery.

    And, when you do the rewatch, please, keep in mind all the times people hint to this not being the first time they’ve gone through these ordeals. On and off island. For example, what about Farady crying, for no reason, when he saw the news of flight 815? You’re telling me there wasn’t some recognition there?

    And, if we go solely by what Christian explains in the church, he says that they’ve created “this place,” together, and that they’re all real. They didn’t create it just for Jack. And it wasn’t Jack’s lone creation either. Ji Yeon should have been there. Helen should have been there. A bucket of Mr. Clucks, family size, should have been there. It doesn’t matter if Jack met any of them. It’s not up to him alone. Remember, Eloise asks Desmond if they were going to take her son, Daniel. As if he had the choice.

    • How do you mean? That is, Charlie was a ghost OFF the island when he appeared to Hurley. Ghost Charlie wasn’t on the island.

      I think you’re examples are questionable. I mean, the implication with Walt is that he had some kind of telekenetic power, and on the island said power was clearly enhanced. The DI, funded through Hanso, were on the island to study those types of abilities. Now, Michael not being able to kill himself would seem to be a result of him still being a candidate. Yes, I suppose that is magical, but it also ties back to the properties of the island and NOT the off-island magic. I don’t know; just seems thin to me.

      For Faraday, yes, I have to think there is recognition, and it’s all a question of time travel. That is, was he already aware then that he would be back in time on the island and shot by his own mother? Is he in effect already in the know that he will be murdered and is tied to the Oceanic flight.

      Yes, but when I say that it is Jack’s perception, I’m also saying that this is what HE needed to move forward. These are the most important people in HIS life.

  49. “How do you mean? That is, Charlie was a ghost OFF the island when he appeared to Hurley. Ghost Charlie wasn’t on the island.”

    Okay, ummmm, let me see if I can make this clearer.

    Charlie is in the sideways timeline. His consiousness moved to the next life. This is something we know, right?

    However, Charlie also seems to be an enlightened ghost on the island timeline, albeit off the island. Are there two Charlies? If there’s an afterlife, why was Charlie a ghost? Wasn’t he able to move on? My question really is, how can ghosts even exist? They should be able to move on to a “purgatory.”

    As far as time travel, Faraday couldn’t have knowledge of anything that hasn’t happened yet through that. Because, although time, in the island reality was jumped, they all experience time in a linear fashion. 3 years in 1977 was the same 3 years experienced in 2004 for both teams of the Losties. Their conciousness wasn’t jumping through time. The only one who had that ability was Desmond.

    “Yes, but when I say that it is Jack’s perception, I’m also saying that this is what HE needed to move forward. These are the most important people in HIS life.”

    So, are you saying that because these were the most important people in HIS life (Penny, Boone, and Shannon excluded, I hope,) he needed them to move on? But, Locke doesn’t need Helen to go forward? Or is everyone in there also a prop, like David, and just avatars of the people they’re supposed to represent? Will Locke also have a church moment with an avatar of Jack and some other people? I’m confused as to your explanation of why Penny can be around, but not Helen or Ji Yeon.

    Off topic, but, even though we’re disagreeing, I really enjoy the conversation. Thanks again for having this forum to discuss Lost without Larry being jealous and reverting to an outward, vocal manifestation of his own sexual insecurity!

    • Ok, i’ll throw some power into the fire.

      With regards to Charlie, if we say that the final scene was through Jack’s eyes so to speak, then perhaps that’s how Charlie can exist in ghost form to talk to Hurley and in the sideways world. What I’m saying here is that Jack in envisioning this and since Charlie has already passed on, maybe his church scene (for him) has already happened and that’s how he’s existing in 2 different places. Not sure I’m really explaining it well, but it makes sense in my head.

      But going along with this, I’ve already sort of answered your next question in that yes, i think everyone gets their own version of the church scene. i think mainly you can argue this because everyone has their own beliefs and Jack was of christian descent so hence, he winds up in a church. i think the final scene was told through Jack’s vision and gives you his interpretation on things.

      On a different note, when are you starting the rewatching of season 1 CB?

      • YES!!! This is exactly what I just wrote to MM, that everyone’s notion of the church scene is based on their own perception of who said individual needs to be in the church. Well said, docheiolmn, as this is my thought exactly.

        I was considering watching the first episode tonight, but I’m downright exhausted. Soon. Promise.

    • I can’t exactly speak to the “Two Charlies” theory. Yes, we know the rules didn’t apply to Desmond, but didn’t we essentially watch all season as “dead” Desmond and his consciousness existed in two places: in the sideways “reality” and on the island?

      As far as Faraday goes, isn’t that the whole point of time travel, in that there is no such thing as a “linear” span of time? Look, if one has the ability to time travel, and said person goes back in time to a point before he should have ever been there, at what point do we assume one version of said person is THE person traveling through time? Okay, that was mad convoluted. What I’m saying is that once once exists in time before his actual existence in the proper state (a la Faraday in 1977), how do we know which memories he has nearly 30 years later (Faraday watching TV and crying)?

      Again, my take is that, even if all of these people needed each other to move on, I don’t know that if this was, say, Sawyer’s story we would have seen the same group of people inside the church. Since it is, and always has been, Jack’s story (aka, Jack as protagonist), it is based on HIS need of who needs to be in the church to move on.

      And for the record, I love the debate, as well.

  50. And just like that I’ve changed my mind. Going to watch Season 1, Episode 1 in just a minute. Who’s with me? Hope to have a blog post up tomorrow or Thursday.

  51. Okay doc and CB, I can accept the church theory.

    Now, on to a whole ‘nother thing;

    Time isn’t linear, but their consiousness is. They experience things, as they happen, and not before, or after. This is the same reason why, when Sawyer and co traveled back to 1977, they didn’t forget all their memories from the next 30 years.

    Although time jumped around, their minds stayed on a straight plane.

    Speaking of which, they never answered the outrigger shooting, did they?

    • Which is pretty much why I’m saying that Faraday is capabale of “remembering” the experience of Oceanic 815 when watching the television set. I mean, if time isn’t linear, and all of our experiences essentially have happened/will happen to us, it’s as though his consciousness was aware of his experience on the island, even though it didn’t directly happen yet.

      No, they didn’t answer that, but I read/heard an interesting theory on it. I’ll try to find it, as it actually made sense.

      • Okay, the interesting take on the outrigger scene was this:

        When Alpert and Miles picked up Lapidus in the ocean, they also picked up the still-living submarine captain. When there’s a flash, they see Locke in the other outrigger, only they think it’s FLocke. They fire on him and miss. Sawyer fires back and kills the submarine captain.

        Okay, I know it’s not a great answer, but it’s the way Ryan presented on The Transmission. And, as he points out, it doesn’t REALLY matter. I mean, it does in that I’m curious, but it doesn’t change anything.

  52. Ben and Locke joining forces again?

    http://www.avclub.com/articles/losts-michael-emerson-and-terry-oquinn-looking-to,44001/


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